You guys are reformed, are you not? How can you believe in total depravity that will never choose God in anything and yet you believe you can join hands with dead men and accomplish God's will. We operate within a culture but we are not of it.

It is one thing to help your neighbor construct a fence and be a witness while doing it, it is quite another to connect light and darkness to bring in God's will by politics. How can you possibly ignore the plethera of Scriptures commanding us to be separate and make politics the exception. And for each ounce of energy and faith we place in the political process that is the same amount we withdraw from prayer and fasting.

Democracy is not of God unless God is in favor of religious pluralism. Let us be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, but let us have wisdom about whose kingdom we really are citizens of. We should not have pride in our church must less patriotic pride in the nation to which we were born.

We've come along way since Paul whose only reference to his earthly citizenship eventually cost him his life.

"You guys are reformed, are you not? How can you believe in total depravity that will never choose God in anything and yet you believe you can join hands with dead men and accomplish God's will."

Thank you for your penetrating comments. They are thought-provoking, and has caused me to do much-needed research.

Here is one possible answer. Total depravity is not defined as "being utterly bad to the nth degree so that one is incapable of doing anything good, like the external, outward good actions of feeding the poor." Most Calvinists do not believe that. Rather, most Reformed folks affirm that even Hitler had moments in his adult life when he showed kindness to his mother. Or moments when he opened the door for ladies. Calvinists believe that total depravity only means that man's will, left to his own doings apart from God's monergistic activity, is spiritually incapable of being oriented or disposed towards God in a Christ-pleasing way. This definition does not prevent the non-elect from doing outwardly "good things," like solving world hunger or feeding the poor. This definition only means that despite the external, outward signs of good things (like feeding the poor), they emanate from a heart that is not right with God in proper motivation.

Therefore, we affirm that even the non-elect may join with the elect in doing outwardly, external "good" things, even though these very same good things emanate out of a hostile heart that is not right with God.

Total Depravity never means "man is as bad as he could possibly be." It only means that aside from the external, outward signs (or visible manifestations), internal heart surgery can only be performed by the One and Only Divine Cardiologist, God.

"It is one thing to help your neighbor construct a fence and be a witness while doing it, it is quite another to connect light and darkness to bring in God's will by politics. How can you possibly ignore the plethera of Scriptures commanding us to be separate and make politics the exception. And for each ounce of energy and faith we place in the political process that is the same amount we withdraw from prayer and fasting."

For purposes of clarity, we both may already agree that much that characterizes "Christian activism" or "Christian view of politics" is probably biblically flawed.

Politics is just one sector among many. There are numerous other sectors here, such as Christians volunteering for Cub Scouts or coaching public school events, etc. This is not necessarily a matter of connecting "light and darkness," as I believe it is a matter of being faithful to God in all areas of life. I do not believe a proper concern for holiness and righteousness leads to geographical (or ontological or spiritual) segregation in which believers withdraw from the non-Christian sectors, for the purpose of focusing more time on prayer and fasting.

Here is one final answer.

See the movie, Amazing Grace. This movie shows how a regenerated Christian changed the course of the world because of his biblical convictions that slavery was an evil abomination to God.

William Wilberforce did not retreat from the world to focus on "other-worldly matters like prayer and fasting." Rather, a proper biblical focus led Wilberforce to ask God to use him to abolish England's despicable slave trade.

You are correct to an extent. Even Charles Finney spoke out against slavery. If they wanted to build a bar next to my house I would get involved to stop it. My point is not that there are never any issues about which we could humbly (!) get involoved and let our voice be heard, no, but I am saying we have way overboard even espousing the system as of God, it is not. And we have let voting, talking, writing (me too), and blogging take the place of fasting and elongated seasons of desperate prayer.

Getting "involved" politically should be the exception rather than the rule. Most of the unsaved American world perceives us as morality motivated and the level of our committment to the Lord Jesus is so compromised that it doesn't even generate persecution in the most secular and hedonistic society ever built.

We live in a society that murders womb babies by the millions, generates billions of dollars in child pornography, drinks obscene amounts of alcohol, pumps sensuousness into ever TV owning home, teaches evolution to children, and embraces the gay lifestyle. And in the midst of THIS culture we are barely noticed, certainly not persecuted.

What is wrong with that picture? Before we remove the morality speck from dead eyes, we should repent of the lukewarm mote in our own eyes. Judgment must begin in the house of God. Lord help us, for Your glory alone!

I think we both agree that most versions of "Christian activism" may be biblically flawed. I may vote pro-life out of biblical convictions. But I do not take my marching orders from Falwell, Robertson, etc.

My argument agrees with you in the limited sense of the following:

the Church should, primarily, be concerned about the nature and duties of the church (evangelism, teaching)

but as a **Secondary** goal, the individual Christian believer may have responsibilites to the public sector, like I have mentioned earlier. However, these responsibilities are a secondary concern, and they are never to replace the primary goal and ultimate responsibility of the Christian believer (prayer, fasting, doctrine, etc). In short, the secondary goals flow naturally out of faithfulness to the primary and ultimate goals.

Example: notice that William Wilberforce did not advocate the elimination of sound doctrine in favor of a pro-abolitionist "social gospel" message. Wilberforce was consistent in both, unlike most religious liberals today.

Concerning your last paragraph, here is my response. I do believe that one primary goal would be sound doctrine. One application of this primary goal would be to root out false teachers, and practicing church discipline, in accordance with 1 Corinthians 5,6. We should not be judging non-Christians, rather, we should only be judging professing believers who claim adherence to Christ.

But the "prophetic voice" of Scripture (ex. Old Testament condemnations of pagan nations) is not in contradiction with the above. They are to be understood in different senses.

Pr. Freuh: "How can you possibly ignore the plethera of Scriptures commanding us to be separate and make politics the exception."

Excellent discussion points, as always.

First. Denominationally I do not identify as reformed in the same way as the blog author. This is not a point of contention between us, just a clarification regarding context.

I do not embrace the separation of church and state such as America debates it. As humans we cannot extricate ourselves from the world any more than we can stop the earth from rotating. Likewise, as Christians, we also cannot remove our soul from God's spiritual realm of heaven or hell.

The point is that I have no problem with Christians participating in politics or any other aspect of the world, as long as we participate in a God fearing and Christ honoring way.

Pr: "And for each ounce of energy and faith we place in the political process that is the same amount we withdraw from prayer and fasting."

I heartily agree. This is not an issue of energy to me, but an issue of where we place our faith.

God provides all of us a worldy vocation or choice of vocations. And whatever worldy vocation we Christians embrace, including politics, we must pursue that vocation in a manner that glorifies God.

In this context I see politics as neither an exception nor a rule with regard to how we participate. Some of us participate in politics a lot, some not at all. But in the context of the afterlife it doesn't really matter how much we participate, it simply matters to whom we give the glory of our efforts and success.

Pr:"Democracy is not of God unless God is in favor of religious pluralism."

Everything is of God in that God is the creator of everything. And even though governments are ultimately of God, any given style including democracy is not in itself good or evil. What is good or evil is how we humans pursue or participate in our government. Non-Christians can’t participate in a God fearing way, but Christians can.

Pr:"Let us be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, but let us have wisdom about whose kingdom we really are citizens of. We should not have pride in our church must less patriotic pride in the nation to which we were born."

Along with pride and may other feelings, we should not place 'faith' in the things of the world.

I feel good when things go right, and I feel good regarding a job well done. But am I feeling good about what I accomplished or about what God has allowed me to accomplish? The problem occurs when it is pride in my own efforts, rather than humble awe of God's power and grace.

Pr. Frueh, My appologies for continually spelling your name wrong. My fingers just don't like putting the 'u' in front of the 'e'.

Pr. Frueh: "What is wrong with that picture? Before we remove the morality speck from dead eyes, we should repent of the lukewarm mote in our own eyes. Judgment must begin in the house of God. Lord help us, for Your glory alone!"

It is an ugly picture.

I think you and I agree on this point, even though I might articulate it a bit different.

It seems like Christianity is not persecuted in America because we live in a supposedly free society. But let us all not be confused nor lulled into blind lukewarm comfort, because we are most definitely under subtle, insideous, sneaky attack.

DieHardColtsFan: "Therefore, we affirm that even the non-elect may join with the elect in doing outwardly, external "good" things, even though these very same good things emanate out of a hostile heart that is not right with God."

And everything that is truly good is a consequence of God, even when non-Christians do a good deed.

The problem with non-Christians is that they don't or can't give God the glory for those good deeds.

God's plan is God's plan, and it isn't going to change based on the efforts of man. Even when bad people strive to do evil things on purpose in direct defiance of God, God still only allows evil actions to occur within the scope of His greater plan.

Satan cannot condemn us. Only God can. Satan can't save us, only Christ can. Satan can't even make us sin, but Satan sure does a good job tempting us to sin.

A good and substantive dialogue with a spirit of true yokefellows. Thank you and I will contine to visit you guys. (to straighten you out - Did I say that?)

Haha! Fair enough. - PRCalDude