PRC,
Good discussion over there...

You and MKHam make good points... however, in my opinion Babs comes in and makes some good points as well.

I will say this, it is somewhat refreshing to hear something different from a Dem leader. But either way personally I'm still not happy with running from Iraq... not at this point. I don't think we're ready to leave yet. Or should I say, I don't think Iraq is ready for us to leave yet.

This post brings up an excellent discussion of a much broader issue. The Iraq war is a secular choice about which the church should have no opinion, after all, who can say if God is for it. The same with the Sudan, the humanitarian issues are obvious and helping people by the hand of the government would be nice but there again, no relationship to the church. In the horizontal scheme of things Biden is correct in pointing out that in Darfur the situation is even worse than Iraq, if only they had oil.

That brings us to us. Our mission is salvinic with humanitarian accoutrements that are meant to soften people's hearts, exhibit God's love, and ultimately draw them to Christ hence the command "in Jesus name". I can find no Biblical support for jumping on the governmental bandwagon when the church collectively and individually should be leading the effort to help people. We should be the light of the world, the salt of the earth, and the city on a hill. Our help should read "in Jesus name" not made in the USA.

A good discussion!

There are many issues in Iraq. Many objectives. Many different ideas about what success should look like.

It does seem, as Henry points out, the political agenda and moral/religious agendas are working at cross purposes.

It is my opinion that what we are doing is right, such as I understand it.

Sometimes, the best way to offer humanitarian aid and enforce peace is by the might of the military in grasping and holding fast to rules of law. Military efforts that lend a platform for civilian law and enforcement to grow, and take on responsibility for governing.

Question is if we have the fortitude to stick this one out, or have we already lost?

Question is if we have the fortitude to stick this one out, or have we already lost?

I think that if this country keeps the right people in crucial positions of government (e.g. the White House), we can overcome.

I'm not one of these people that believes that 'Bush lied,' etc, but after studying Islam, I can tell you that no amount of 'sticking it out' is going to fix Iraq's problems. The only thing that will is a massive amount of missionaries and the banning of Islam in that country, especially if we're going to fight in a P.C. manner.

Second question:

Do we then propose to continue striving to implement a secular democracy in an otherwise Mulsim country?

Think about this for a minute, considering what Pr. Frueh is saying.

And then consider that our government is striving to implement a secular form of government in a country and culture that will never embrace any kind of secular government system, democratic or otherwise.

To clarify myself:

When I said that I think we are not ready to leave yet, I meant that in terms of the chaos that in going on right now... I don't think it would be moral for us to pull out and leave that country to the savages. It will implode.

However, as far as the U.S. trying to "force" (if you will) a secular type of government upon Iraq... I've always believed that wouldn't work. Which is where I think that President Bush (although his intentions may be good) is wrong. In my opinion, Islam has proven (for 1300 years) that it cannot coexist with a secular form of government... anyways that religion is as political as they come! Islam must have a ultra-conservative, sharia-implementing government to complement it.

We are in agreement, Mole.

When I said that I think we are not ready to leave yet, I meant that in terms of the chaos that in going on right now... I don't think it would be moral for us to pull out and leave that country to the savages. It will implode.

How are we morally responsible? Are we the ones making them kill one another? THEY are responsible for their own actions. We've done nothing but help them. Them killing one another is actually good for us. That sounds cynical, but the first rule of warfare is "Let you and him fight." In other words, if your enemy wants to fight amongst himself, let him.

I know a couple of people who've come back from there and report the pernicious effects of that religion on the mindset of the people there.

The entire country is savage. The only people there capable of civilization are the kurds and christians.

How are we morally responsible?

Well, we are not (or shouldn't be) morally responsible... but now that we are there (that's what I meant)... now that we are there, and in the midst of all of that, I think it would be wrong to just get up and leave in the manner that the Democrats want us to.

Honestly, I always have thought this: why are we (usually) always going in somewhere and trying to set up freedom our way (AKA Made in the USA)? In the beginning, I questioned us going into Iraq... for some of the reasons you've mentioned, which I agree with. However, the flip side for me was that I did believe back then (and still do) that Saddam had to go.

Are we the ones making them kill one another? THEY are responsible for their own actions. We've done nothing but help them.

Of course not, and yes, they are responsible and should be held responsible... I agree that at some point we will eventually be leaving from there, and they better get used to that idea... and hopefully by then they'll have a stable country, but if they don't, well, we're still going to leave. I just don't think that right at this instant and as suddenly as the Dems want, is right.

I’m watching the news today seeing ambulances and sirens and cars burning and smoke everywhere and people running and crying and shaking their heads. It’s a daily scene on the news there in Baghdad and Palestine and Darfur. People needlessly killed in the name of a religion. When I think of religion I used to think of crazy monks secluded in candlelit rooms writing deep thoughts about their lives of seclusion but my image of religion has changed recently and my image is that religion is about death and mayhem and suffering and crying.

But why? Why are they crying? Their brothers and sons and fathers and children and mothers and daughters are being killed but they don't have to be. You see there’s this big debate among all the religious people about my religion is better than yours and so on and I just have to wonder is there something to that whole mine is better than yours idea or is it merely a matter of what are the end results of yours and mine. I see Muslims killing and being killed and I know it doesn't have to be that way. I know it doesn't have to be a world of grief. The world and in particular the Muslim world could really be a world of love if they just knew Jesus. But they don't because of this idea that we are right and you are wrong. And really someone has to be right don't they? Someone has to be wrong.

It’s been said over and over that Islam is a religion of peace and it is actually supposed to be. They have these two concepts called Dar el Salam and Dar el Harab. the first one being the house of peace and the second one being the house of war. For all Muslims they are supposed to be in the house of peace but for the rest of the world that is not Muslim it is a house of war. But when I look at the middle east I see everyone in the house of war. But that’s not where Jesus is at. He's not in either one of those houses and I wonder if He stood among the Muslims of the world right now would they kill Him if He offered His hands to them His hands in love and peace and grace and mercy. I would hope that they would fall down and confess Him as Lord so that their world can stop spinning out of control.

I am sure there are lots of peaceful Muslims in the world and they want nothing more than to raise their kids and see them get old and raise their kids and so on. I don't want to be harsh with them they are taught just like we are about religion and that Islam is the only way but at some point in time I would think that they would recognize that there is something wrong with the way they are doing things.

Look at the awful pain and anguish in the Muslim world and not just in Iraq. From Casablanca to Baghdad throughout Egypt, Arabia and Indonesia they grieve for their sons daughters mothers cousins and fathers. The killing is almost at fever pitch through Arabia and Islam and the religion of peace has come to be nothing but the religion of hopelessness.

In Palestine they teach their children from learning age to kill the infidel and especially the Jew. In Iran they train Hezbollah for one war. Yet they continue to kill and plunder each other they are jobless are men reduced to nothing more than beggars. Warriors roaming the streets in need of a fight they beg for a fight and find it with one another hoping to one day destroy America and Israel and then once they have destroyed all the enemies of Islam they can square off again Sunni and Shiite and Wahabbi.

Their aimless hopeless misdirection is rooted in one idea. Islam. Their tears and their blood mix on the Arab street after wantonly killing one another only to lay the blame at the feet of America as if America planted the bombs that kill their children or Israel as if Israel pulled the trigger that shot their loved one. No it is the Muslim that pulls the trigger and plants the bomb and kills and maims one another because they live under a rule of sword. They have become titans without trembling they kill and care less and less.

Islam has become the scourge of the planet and it is time to set those people free from their evil. They can only be freed by Jesus. Jesus Christ. Yahusha Ha Maschiac. Looking at the teaching of the two founding fathers of their respective faiths there is no comparison. Jesus preached that if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword. He never taught men to be a bunch of wussie boys but He did teach men to love. Mohammed preached that the sword was the way to advance your cause and subjugate the infidel.

But what is the Evangelical Church in America doing? As a whole nothing really. Shortly after the 911 attacks Bill Hybels had a Muslim clergyman come to the pulpit of Willow Creek and through a question and answer style service he convinced the Creekers that Islam is the religion of peace. 15,000 Christians in one of the most influential churches in the nation and one of the most influential churches this side of Ephesus was pacified.

Rick Warren went to Syria recently and spoke to their political leaders telling them how tolerant they were of “religious diversity.” Warren is the leader of one of the other most influential churches in America Saddleback Church in California.

Our evangelical leaders have dropped the ball and relegated the battle for millions of souls to the back alleys of churches where apologists have been imprisoned. Now that the Bush policies have failed miserably to change the face of the middle east evangelicals in America are left without a plan because we put all of our stock in the Bush plan. The Bush plan worked at first. It wiped out the Muslim Army of Saddam gaining easy victory but the battle of ideas was not won that cannot be won through the gun.

For thousands of years leaders have learned the valuable lesson you cannot take people's ideas. The communists of Russia learned that and so are the Chinese now learning that with the fastest growing church in the history of humanity. And here we sit American evangelicals without a plan and the world spiraling out of control. Just a bunch of do gooding carcasses taking up space. The ultimate geek squad. Can there be any greater indictment of the American church than this one. The evangelical church in Germany did the exact same thing during the rise of Hitler's Nazi’s with the exception of men of God like Dietrich Bonheoffer who defied them. His effort though valiant was to little. We need many men of God to step up to the plate in America and begin to make a change that will change the face of the Middle East through the battle of ideas which is where the gun ends.

We must now rapidly formulate a plan as a movement to save the souls of millions of men women and children though the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is eternal. This is eternity. We have got to get perspective. The resources are available. Small organizations exist with this goal but their efforts are minimal and as a movement evangelical America is not behind them. One-billion lives depend on this. Is it our responsibility? Yes absolutely yes. We are responsible to bring this gospel message to every man women and child through whatever means necessary.

If the voice of 10 million Christians in America rose as one as we did with the abortion debate we would surely make an impact on those Muslims dying and going to hell while suffering their personal hells here on earth. Though legally the abortion battle is lost here in the USA morally it is completely won and before a woman gets an abortion she has to ponder the morality of her soul. The same should happen with Islam.

There are objections. Many will say that those nations are closed to evangelism. This is why evangelicals must organize and come up with ideas and form a united front on this issue to begin breaking through the oppression of Islam. We must come up with a single minded focus to approach the problem of Islam. Whatever it is we cannot sit back and do nothing. Evangelicals love their feel good conferences the ones where yes we learn and we grow and we dig deeper, but it is all for us and not for them.

We can form a conference of leaders that learn how to grow their churches through techniques and ideas for church growth but we cannot have a conference on how to break through the oppression of Islam. We have prosperity messages galore but not one message from a pulpit in America on how to win the hearts and minds of Muslims. Every pulpit in America should be speaking about this before every service energizing men and women of God and mobilizing them for not only prayer but also evangelism through whatever means necessary. And for those Christians that don’t want to hear this message then forget them.

We are so locked in a box that there is one way to do things. Friendship evangelism. Fire and Brimstone evangelism. We get boxed up and we become immobile. Whatever the case is we are not touching the lives of a billion people right now in this time in this generation with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They will not seek it out. They won't go to the net to find out the truth. They think they have the truth despite the murder and mayhem. why would they go out and look for truth when they think they have it?

We will stand before God and give account as to why we as the church let them perish without lifting a finger. When Bush sent in the army the thinking was that ok they can fight the war and win and we never thought for a moment of the end game. Our soldiers as valiant as they fought could not win the minds of those in Iraq and now the Muslim world is on the verge of some cataclysmic explosion. This is a battle of ideas that must now be fought by those who have a superior idea a superior message which is the message of Jesus Christ. We must speak the truth lovingly politely and forcefully. The kingdom of God suffers violence and violent men lay hold of it. This is our moment. We must change their hearts. The is the moment in our generation that we must rise to the greatest challenge we have ever each personally faced. Lets change the world.

Wow.

I'm going to have to read that again a few times before I say anything.

aerofree1 - amen and amen. Who cares what the government is or isn't going to do, what does God want the church to do!

I see Muslims killing and being killed and I know it doesn't have to be that way. I know it doesn't have to be a world of grief. - Pr. Frueh

Yes. It does have to be this way.

This is evil loosed on the world, and prophecied on countless occassions throughout Biblical history.

This is Satan loosed on the world until Christ returns.

We will stand before God and give account as to why we as the church let them perish without lifting a finger. - Pr. Frueh

It is not within our power to change this sinful world.

Only God can do that and God has promised to do just this, when Christ returns.

We may have a secular government fighting a war, but we are also a Christian Culture facing down a non-Christian culture.

We have two choices. Stay and fight, or leave. Either way it will not change that culture to be like ours. Only God can do that.

However, whatever suffering they are facing now it is much less than it was under their previous evil dictatorial ruler. And just because the only thing we see in the national media is the bad side of all this, it doesn't mean there isn't a good side.

Like they always say, don't believe everything you hear in the media. Or, at least, don't take what you hear as the full truth.

Those are not my quotes.

>Only God can do that and God has promised to do just this, when Christ returns.<

He has commanded us to do it until He returns.

>We may have a secular government fighting a war, but we are also a Christian Culture facing down a non-Christian culture.<

And our mission is to this culture and to every culture. There are more Christian ministers in the USA than in all the rest of the world combined. What does that tell you?

>We have two choices. Stay and fight, or leave. Either way it will not change that culture to be like ours. Only God can do that.<

This is not about making their culture like our culture. This is about bringing the truth of Yahushua to them.

>However, whatever suffering they are facing now it is much less than it was under their previous evil dictatorial ruler.<

That is not a salient point to the message I bring you. It is an obvious point yes but has no bearing on the message I have for you and all who God opens to hear it.

>And just because the only thing we see in the national media is the bad side of all this, it doesn't mean there isn't a good side.<

Indeed this is not an antiwar rant. This is a call to Christian men to stand up and be counted.

>Like they always say, don't believe everything you hear in the media. Or, at least, don't take what you hear as the full truth.<

I promise you I don't believe what I hear in the media.

April 22, 2007 | aerofree1

Couldn't have said it better myself. I would like to add: Muslims divide the world into Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam. The land of war and the land of Islam. Slightly different spelling than what you had.

Our evangelical leaders are throwing us under the bus quite handily, especially men like Hybels and Warren. The only one who has shown any guts is Franklin Graham, who told one Muslim leader that he wanted the guy to convert to Christianity.

Yeh Franklin Graham is pretty good about our faith. Unfortunately the rest of evangleicalism is to worried about Joel Osteen and that female televangelist I forget her name off the top of my head now. American evangelicals are thinking about the bottom line which comes down to what this faith can do to advance our own agendas rather than what it is that we can do to advance Jesus in this tragic world. Its a subtle overcast in our churchs and we have to reframe but you won't cath miniters helping evangelicals reframe or if they are trying to help reframe they are doing it in the opposite direction by screaming fire and brimstone. We are in a bad way right now in american evangelicalism. We need reform. We need a Luther.